Definition of a Truck/SUV

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gtivr4
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Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by gtivr4 »

So we have a rule that states that Trucks and SUVs aren't allowed in our Autocross/ITT events. Whether I agree with the rule or not is irrelevant (I think it applies to autocross, not ITT), but I would like to know how we as a club define a truck or an SUV. Its a pretty undefined rule and open to a LOT of interpretation.

Obviously the reason for the rule is to try to minimize rollovers...

So where do we draw the line? Are all of the following banned?

VW Cabby (basically a first gen Rabbit in truck form, no more or less likely to roll than a Rabbit).
Subaru Outback/Baja - Technically an SUV, but good handling cars that aren't overly tippy. Obviously higher up than their standard sedan/wagon counterparts however.
Subaru Forester/Honda CRV/Ford Escape etc - Cute utes based on small econo car underpinnings. Not especially likely to roll (at least in my not so humble opinion).
Scion Xb/Nissan Cube - Looks a little like an SUV, but really is just a tall hatchback.

What about modified small pickups? Certainly my Sonoma fits in the exclusion rule, and I'm not debating that, but we have allowed lowered versions (S10 Extremes) and highly modified versions (see a certain Blazer) in in the past.
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lwheelock
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by lwheelock »

The exact wording that our club voted on in 2007 is exactly what SCCA uses in their solo rules. (see page 33, of the second link below section 3.1, 3rd paragraph, first sentence) this is what we have adopted.

When the club had this discussion back in 2007 we had the same issue how do we decide who was in and who was out. Ultimately what we landed on was following SCCA guidelines when it comes to vehicles that should/shouldn't be allowed. Basically if your car was on the SCCA stock classification list (which we use as the base to our own car classing system) then your car was deemed acceptable. If how ever your questionable vehicle was not on the list then it was generally not acceptable unless allowed by the chair for that event.

here is a link to SCCA's 2011 stock classifications
http://cms.scca.com/documents/2011%20Te ... stings.pdf

as well as their 2010 Rules (since 2011 rules are not posted yet)
http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_Rule ... _rules.pdf
if we wanted to take our HCG vehicle discussion to the next level we could follow their guidelines given for their safety stewards - see chart on page 254 of that document for how to determine a vehicle's eligibility.
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pdudley42
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by pdudley42 »

To cloud things further, SCDA has taken to allowing performance-built rigs like BMW X5, Ford Lightning, and several others...ON TRACK nonetheless.
My .025 is that a unibody vehicle should be allowed, a body-on-frame 4x4 should not. I know there was some debate about a CR-V at an autocross a few years back, but perhaps that should have been failed in tech. You can learn a lot about how a vehicle will handle dynamically by giving it the old "hump test" (unless it's under 18). If a vehicle has in-tact bushings, front and rear sway bars, and not totally wasted shocks/struts, it should be all right (on street tires).
I believe I was the last pilot of a 4x4 at one of our autocrosses: my 79 Bronco at VTC. I also entered it once at Verizon. At no time did it feel tippy; kind of like a giant Miata. I upgraded the bushings and dampers, as well as all steering components.
The bummer of this is that we must treat ITT exactly the same as autocross for insurance purposes, despite massive glaring differences.
It seems that some of us thought the decision was to be left to the event chair, which seems fairish. Then at least it would be on a case-by-case basis. I'm not afraid to fail a squooshy old RAV 4 on fried snow tires at Devil's Bowl, but if we start failing Legacys at ITTs, we suck.
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Butch#178
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by Butch#178 »

I know I am not a member of the club and I do hope that the blazer 178 will not be bared from the auto-x's and yes I know it is the exception too the rule.But I do understand the reason behind the rule and with that said I think there is always an exception to the rule,so maybe it should be left too the event chair and the tech people so that you can make it a group answer with the event chair having the final say. Just my opinion thanks Butch King :3gears:

Also I race with COM. alot and they have not has any problems with trucks racing with them but not sure if they have a rule or not
The P.H.A. Hill climbs do have them show up but they do have the event chair say if you can race or not with them as far as I know
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DaveP189
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by DaveP189 »

We allowed a GMCrolet pick-up (smaller version, not full-size) at Stowe, decision by us techies came down to because it was on stock 'no-seasons', so little danger of roll-over. I like Paul's idea of the frame/unibody standard, but some of the most rollover prone vehicles in tests are unibodies, so :dunno:

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pdudley42
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by pdudley42 »

Butch, you ARE the exception to the rule.
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DaveP189
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by DaveP189 »

pdudley42 wrote:Butch, you ARE the exception to the rule.
Yes, meant to mention that in my post...
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STI NICK
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by STI NICK »

not sure how a body on frame or a unibody makes a difference. A high center of gravity is a high center of gravity. Seems like we need to define what a high center of gravity is. Perhaps we shouldnt even use the word Truck/SUV. There is a volvo floating around st albans/Georgia area with 34 super swampers and a V8. Since its a unibody we should let it run????

There is always going to be an exception to the rule which is why we should leave some way for a chair person to make an exception.
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Mr. Bridgestone
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by Mr. Bridgestone »

I think we should keep the rule the way it is, but add....

Final determination of a vehicles eligibility shall rest with the Event Chair.

Nuff said. :D
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BugEyeRex
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Re: Definition of a Truck/SUV

Post by BugEyeRex »

Didn't we say a vehicle may be able to run after being inspected and a aproved by a safety official PRIOR to the day ofthe event?
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