Would a supermoto be allowed?

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Drag The Lake

Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by Drag The Lake »

I'll be visiting VT in late July and wouldn't mind coming out and playing with you guys and gals. I'm already dragging one bike back to VT, and it wouldn't be any big deal to bring my YZ85 supermoto if I'd be allowed out on Devils Bowl. I race adult mini supermoto out here in Utah, and have full leathers, spine protector, boots, gloves, helmet, and my bike runs non- glycol coolant, has been safety wired and the appropriate sliders have been installed to prevent hard parts from gouging the pavement, and has a check valve in the tank breather tube and a catch can to prevent any fluids from spilling. I'm assuming and accept that I'd have to purchase a membership due to insurance reasons as well as the entry fee.

I know this is the Sports CAR Club of Vermont, and I'm sure the answer is probably no, but I've always wanted to participate in an autox with this thing to see how it'd do against cars. The SCCA out here has denied my request despite nothing in the rule book or insurance rider forbidding two wheeled vehicles. Make my dream come true, guys. :)

And now, because everyone loves pictures and video, please allow me to use the power of multimedia to induce the board to grant me permission. \:D/

Image

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pdudley42
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Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by pdudley42 »

Hi Cool video! I always wanted to run at Miller. Do you live out there? Just visiting VT? I've always wondered how a bike would do at an autocross. Our courses at Devil's Bowl would really suit it well too. Rhythmic and higher speeds than most.
That said, Devil's Bowl is really NOT a good place to try it. There is a big drop off on the back side of the track into water. That's the common sense part. The other thing is that we don't have any safety people (EMTs) there for our events, and I think we can agree that as a rider you would be exposed to significantly more risk of injury than the STI crowd. Then there's the lawyers. We have a pretty good relationship with our insurer, and they would drop us if they say photos of a motorcycle on course at our car event. Sorry dude, you (we) live in the wrong country, but at least the cheese is good!
Paul Dudley #42

There are no accidents; only collisions.
Drag The Lake

Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by Drag The Lake »

Yep, I live about 60- 90 minutes from Miller, depending on how early I wake up. :lol: I'll be visiting family while I'm there and am organizing and hosting a 10th "anniversary" memorial ride for a good friend who was killed on a bike by a 17 year old girl in an SUV back on July 19th, 2002. Yes, I used to live in VT and ran with you guys 10- 12 years ago back in the Berlin Mall and Camp Johnson days, but have found myself enjoying bikes quite a bit more than cars since I've been in UT. The motorcycle and car culture out here is unreal. We have canyon and mountain roads (no frost heaves!) that put some smaller race tracks to shame as far as surface quality and layout of turns. And Miller... holy crap, Miller. Any given day, you can go out there and walk into the day garages and see stuff like this:

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That particular day, there was a Porsche club enjoying a track day and I wandered over while most were out circulating Perimeter. I tried to get some shots of the garages when they were full, but time between supermoto heats was few and far between. Other days, I've seen Audi RS8's, Ferrari's, Lambo's, a couple Skylines (older RHD JDM imports and the new one sold here), some crazy open wheel F2000-ish stuff that I have no idea what it was, ect ect ect. I remember one time, a local guy showed up with his personal semi trailer full of Italian exotics, stacked two high down the whole trailer. He brought out some selections from his collection for him and his friends to play with.

And autocross? Miller has a parking lot that I estimate is about 10 acres in size and is the smoothest, cleanest asphalt you'll find this side of race track curbing.

They also have drivers and riders schools out there, and here's a shot of one of the motorcycle classrooms:

Image

It's an absolutely amazing facility that is worth checking out even if there's nothing big scheduled that day. I highly recommend it being on the short list of any motorsports enthusiast's things to do before they die.

Anyway... back to the issue at hand. So I dig what you're saying and am on board with you on the safety aspect. I've never been to Devils Bowl, and only saw the in car and out of car footage of the fellow with the BMW 318, BUT... once the waiver is signed and the dues and entry fee is paid, what's the difference between me and an 80cc shifter kart in regards to safety and that drop off? Yes, I'm more likely to fall over than a kart, but I'm not going to slide as far because my corner speeds are about half to two thirds of what a kart will do. Do you have EMT's there if someone is on a kart? I only ask because the kart suits are not nearly as abrasion resistant as my leather onesie with CE approved armor.

Let's talk about falling. When I fall off the bike, we part company, unlike a kart that stays with and lands on top of you because your knees got stuck under the wheel. Then there's the whole inertial factor. I'm 190 with my gear on, and the bike is 156 wet with 20 HP and geared to top out at 80ish in 6th at the end of the 900' straight we have out here. When I fall at the speeds I'm doing on the kart track out here, which are higher than what I see occurring on Devils Bowl, the bike and I don't even make it all the way across the 25' wide track before we're stopped. If you put me next to your average Joe autocrossing car at the speeds you guys do out there, and I hit the ground at the same time the driver hit the brakes, I'm betting I come to a stop before they do.

Consider too that the dynamics of a mini supermoto- it isn't going to fall over 'till roughly halfway through the turn, or once the lean angle has been set and the suspension has settled. With cars, if your entry speed is way too high, you'll lose traction within the first 30% of the turn and either plow or skid. A mini sumo is going to make it at least halfway through the turn because the time it takes the suspension to settle is much slower than turn in. Most of my crashes have been on my YZ85, and none have been anything less than mid corner. Based on what I saw in those videos, halfway through most of those turns points me down the track or towards the infield...

Keep in mind, too that this thing is NOT a sport bike that will wheelie out of control, hit 80 in first gear, and high side me to the moon... I have a foot of suspension travel and am able to achieve so much lean angle that when traction is lost, the bike doesn't weigh enough to hit the bump stops and spit me out the top. At full lean, my foot peg is dragging, and my inside hip is about 18" off the ground; I don't have very far to go when things go wrong.

I understand and appreciate your concern for my safety. In my years of racing, I have been down quite possibly as many as 20 times, a few of which were low triple digits. As non- motorcycle racers, I can understand your fear of falling and assumption that ANY crash is going to result in a severely injured or even dead rider, but please let me assure you that the gear I wear is designed to save my life at well over 100 MPH. Believe me when I say safety is at the forefront of my mind every time I get on a bike; when I ride the canyons, even at sane speeds, I wear all my track gear. How many of you throw on your nomex suits and helmets when you go for a 6/10ths run over App Gap?

In the end, a no is a no, but I hope that my long winded post can perhaps shed some light on the realities of how a bike like mine would behave out there, and the liability risk of doing so. Thanks for reading. :)
Last edited by Drag The Lake on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drag The Lake

Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by Drag The Lake »

After making that post, I looked on Google maps, and there's about 100' of grass between the pavement and the water:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=west+hav ... rmont&z=18

I don't think I could slide that far if I tried, downhill or not. If it's a concern for me on a bike, why not a car? If I go in, all I have to do is walk or swim to shore. You guys in the cars are screwed if you can't get your seat belt undone or open the door.

That track is what... 50' wide plus it's banked? I could go WOT down the straight leading into T1, tuck the front at the entry and not even make it to the outside curbing. :rolleyes:

I also forgot to mention in my previous post- I carry my own racers insurance policy.
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Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by pdudley42 »

Hi again. What's your name. Just want to address you properly. I don't think we allow karts at this facility for very similar reasons. It's not just the back straight, it's also the wall on the front straight. We often approach the exit of turn 4 at 60pmh, looking right at the wall. At any rate, the insurance thing is the real killer here. If anything can make this happen for you it is that you carry your own insurance. I'm not too familiar with these regulations. For hillclimbs, some of which allow bikes, they must carry their own insurance. I don't know how similar these policies are, but I'm guessing that for one rider to purchase a policy for a single event would be pretty pricey. Personally, I'm fine with your bike being there, as long as SCCV's relationship with our insurer will not suffer. Nick, would you like to weigh in here. I know you deal with our insurer quite often.
Paul Dudley #42

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Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by Drag The Lake »

Drag, DTL or Drag The Lake all work for me. I prefer to keep my real name off the internet as much as possible for occupational reasons. :) Regardless of the outcome of this, I'll pop by and introduce myself in person when I'm there.

Regarding the insurance, let me know what sort of coverage I'd need to carry and I'll see what my provider can do.
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Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by STI NICK »

For insurance reasons we cant have bikes at the events. The short version is our insurance is grouped with other clubs to reduce upfront costs. An agreement was made that motorcycles were more risk than the majority was willing to take at an event, so we werent going to run them. The whole motorcycle this was voted on last year because one club wanted to run motorcycles so asking for an exception is not likely. The separate insurance thing doesnt really work because no matter what our insurance policy can still be affected because we are organizing the event. That is a whole different subject that I dont want to discuss because I am not a lawyer, and really dont like talking about insurance.

Its not that we dont want to to run its just not possible the way our insurance is set up, and thanks to todays laws we have to have it.

Now the club that does run motorcycles (superMoto to be exact) is having a hillclimb event the first weekend in July and August at Okemo Mountain. Info can be found at hillclimb.org Not sure how long you are in town for, but that is a fun event. Here is a quick video that one of the biker guys put together.
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pdudley42
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Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by pdudley42 »

Thanks Nick, that's about what I figured you'd say. Cool video though!
DTL, hope we'll see you next weekend. I'll be the guy driving the loud Miata.
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Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by STI NICK »

pdudley42 wrote:Thanks Nick, that's about what I figured you'd say. Cool video though!
DTL, hope we'll see you next weekend. I'll be the guy driving the loud Miata.
No problem. I think you said it best Paul. We are just in the wrong country. :drive1:
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Drag The Lake

Re: Would a supermoto be allowed?

Post by Drag The Lake »

Well, there it is. I guess I'll only be bringing one bike back with me, then. Paul, I won't be back there 'till July 18th, so I'll swing by Devils Bowl then. Hey, I may even run my car... Either way, thanks for at least entertaining this idea and spending the time to explain why it's no bueno, guys.
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